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Zg Session 77 A 17 Nov 2017 06:41 (rev. 1) Aleithilithos
Added tags: zeitgeist.
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Zeitgeist - Logs S 17 Nov 2017 06:38 (rev. 55) Aleithilithos
Zeitgeist S 17 Nov 2017 06:37 (rev. 27) Aleithilithos
Zeitgeist - Dramatis Personae S 17 Nov 2017 06:28 (rev. 55) Aleithilithos
Zeitgeist - Skill Comparisons S 17 Nov 2017 05:33 (rev. 62) Fuepepe
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Zg Session 76 N 11 Nov 2017 16:44 (new) Aleithilithos
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Tower Of Eternity S 11 Nov 2017 05:43 (rev. 36) Icecylee
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ToE- Yin S 11 Nov 2017 04:50 (rev. 143) Aurumi
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ToE-Shuu S 11 Nov 2017 02:09 (rev. 44) Julian Skies
ToE-Shuu S 11 Nov 2017 01:04 (rev. 43) Julian Skies
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For what's worth, i'd like if the average damage dealt number floated at around 40, any number below that just feels… Absolutely meaningless. In the current playtest rules +1 damage might be powerful on a multi-hit but feels like it does Nothing At All in general.

Re: Stats by Julian SkiesJulian Skies, 09 Feb 2017 04:57

Okay so I know peter definitely wants to keep numbers tiny, and they generally seem a lot easier to work with, which is cool. OTOH, having larger numbers makes it a bit easier to fine tune things, especially statuses.
That said, I think "flat bonuses" might stick around just for ease of use, even if it means that buffs/debuffs kinda suck on inherently stronger attacks. Though that's kind of off topic. Anyway.

On top of that, we're currently playing around with the idea of there not being any player allocated attributes. I'm not super sure how I feel about this, to be honest. On the one hand it makes it super easy to balance stuff. OTOH it also feels weird to disregard it entirely. It's also weird that we don't have die rolls in attacks at all, which also seems to have this weird side effect of players not remembering to… list the damage their attacks do, which is mildly annoying since I don't wanna have to memorize/look up everyone's sheet constantly.

So I was kinda thinking something along the lines of like… What if we just straight up doubled the values we're using right now, rather than going into the triple digits we're used to? Keeps things kind of smaller and grounded and in the higher tiers of D&D feeling, which are still workable. And then like, give everything a d4~d8 roll? Possibly having like 1d4, 2d6 and 1d8 you can assign for your melee/gun/magic/heal strengths, in place of attribute allocation? idk, might not be a great idea but figured I'd get it down on paper while it was running through my head. Or even if we just wanted to have the dice be a thing but not att allocation, I could see that being a place I could slip some more customization in for certain classes (like Mystic's Bow/Pistol/Rifle specialization choice currently. Maybe when you make a Maverick you pick melee or guns and get a bigger attack die for it, or something)

Stats by IcecyleeIcecylee, 07 Feb 2017 23:05

It's important for there to always be benefits for being quick anyway! Though I mean, "big hit + delay" seems like an Ironclad thing anyway just… not a paper version thing since limited design space

Nm the only short status is on its charge (and as a side benefit to the hook)

Ironclad has incentives to be slow and heavy
Ironclad also has short statuses
It might need a Slow 1 hit

I think "upgrade one of your combos + you name it and define what it actually is, as a character signature move" is a good choice as something thta should happen

[22:18] <Chrysanthemum> I like s33d and going last in s33d btw because it's like
[22:18] <Chrysanthemum> "OK what shit is open that I can combo with, push the glowing button"
[22:20] <Icecylee> btw I feel like
[22:20] <Icecylee> you having GMed Some Games In Your Time
[22:20] <Icecylee> has done wonders for you as a player
[22:20] <Icecylee> since like even with you going "hmm… *pop open the list*" at the start of your turn you were still making
[22:20] <Icecylee> fairly snappy decisions
[22:21] <Chrysanthemum> hahaha good! GMing is so much fucking easier
[22:21] <Chrysanthemum> which sounds weird
[22:21] <Chrysanthemum> and like, GMing battles definitely /gives me more of a headache/
[22:22] <Chrysanthemum> but I have much less actual "do I do THIS or THAT guah"
[22:22] <Icecylee> haha
[22:22] <Icecylee> probably because on the GM side you don't care about winning
[22:22] <Icecylee> so if you do something suboptimal you just shrug it off instead of feeling like you actually fucked something up
[22:24] <Chrysanthemum> yeah that's def. part of it
[22:24] <Chrysanthemum> also it's usually way more obvious to me what any given monster is doing
[22:25] <Chrysanthemum> also see: why I liked samurai so much in seed 2 haha
[22:25] <Chrysanthemum> "i'm in this stance! now I'm in that stance! hurray!"
[22:25] <Icecylee> yeah
[22:28] <Icecylee> though that makes me wonder
[22:29] <Icecylee> if maybe we want something like 4e's number of power limit to make the flashing lights stay obvious or…
[22:29] <Icecylee> hm
[22:29] <Icecylee> maybe having an option to let a move combo multiple times or something instead of learning new techs/spells??
[22:31] <Chrysanthemum> that -might- be a thing to look into, yeah
[22:32] <Icecylee> lemme C&P that part of the convo into… A FORUM POST… just to get the thought in the open

Vendetta/Obsessed
for when you can't get it out of your head
perhaps +CoS to anything directly involving your target of obsession
-CoS to anything not
leave when they're dead. or when you remember about your friends, perhaps. something that breaks the focus…?
maybe something not super-long

Melancholy
for when the world turns but nothing is right
a cloud follows you
maybe this is just a differently named panic…?

sadly it's gonna be based on "what it is" more than "what it does"…

that DOES admittedly appeal to my love of monster roles, so okay.

"Color-code monsters in the init tracker, so you get the information without feeling like you're getting that information"
(Skies of Arcadia)

"in the mcs, have really strict rules for what types of monster get what weakness, so it's predictable w/o being stated"
(the Mana Way)

probably doing the latter

So on the one hand, I don't think most people super like playing the element guessing game, especially if there's not always some kind of logic to it.

From there, last playtest we decided to just give the information out at the start of the turn.

ilru pointed out though that he didn't like getting all that information from the start since it made things a little more boring knowing exactly what to do without any trial and error. And I mean, he does kind of have a point. There's something to be said for discovering this information through trial and error, or over time.

So I'm wondering if there's a way to kind of address both these problems at once, or like, find some middle ground somehow. Not entirely sure how though.

Start without any information, and when you hit a monster you learn it's W/R and if it has any Armor value, regardless of what you hit it with? The party picks one monster a round to glean information from? Something else?

oh wait i just realized you were responding to the first three names i randomly threw out and not peter's anyway haha, I guess that kinda made sense.

But yeah, "Launch", "Pin", "Rush", were the ones settled on.

Re: Combos by IcecyleeIcecylee, 03 Oct 2016 06:36

if by SMT you mean Xenosaga… then yes (which had both launching and grounding hits, actually)! though I guess P…3? did have a 'knocked over' status didn't it.

Anyway, aerial would be the same thing as launch in basically all cases so it wouldn't help anyway :D Also they aren't target specific anyway, and are describing the attack type and not the effect it has on the target in any case.

Re: Combos by IcecyleeIcecylee, 03 Oct 2016 06:33

Gunna be a real silly of a dork here and suggest "Aerial" in place of "Rush" mostly because the other two are conditions in which a target may be in and Aerial is as well, also Stagger is from Trails, Down is from SMT and Aerial is from RH and i'm a dork.

Re: Combos by Julian SkiesJulian Skies, 03 Oct 2016 03:14

[11:25] <Peter‘> okay here’s the thing about specific combo tags,
[11:25] <Peter‘> I’m willing to allow them, and I actually know two of the three I want
[11:26] <Peter‘> but they make -5 sense when freefloating, as opposed to the acceptable -1 sense that elemental combo tags make
15[11:28] <Ice|Sleep> I don’t think that's necessarily true, if you simply frame it as capitilizing on different types of battle momentum against opposing combat units! Looking for the ideal opportunities to launch attacks and the like.
[11:28] <Peter‘> PERHAPS
15[11:28] <Ice|Sleep> rather than strictly going "yeah pulling ambient elemental energy from out of the air"
[11:28] <Peter`> anyway two of them are "Launch" and "Pin"
[11:28] <Peter`> whereas launch is "something that hurls an enemy up into the air" and Pin is "something that sticks an enemy in place for a sec"
15[11:30] <Ice|Sleep> yeah I’m not super particular on what we call 'em, but I'm pretty sure we want three for optimal interlocking. ("Pin"s definitely a better way to say down though haha)
[11:32] <Peter‘> yeah for pin I imagine basically ’everything that skewers' + 'everything that grabs'
[11:32] <Peter‘> grappling hook pins
15[11:32] * Ice|Sleep nod
[11:37] <Peter`> I Replied
15[11:41] <Ice|Sleep> so noted
15[11:44] <Ice|Sleep> but yeah after we lock down the new tags to use we can go back and REVISE TEST CHARACTERS and probably rewrite the current Rules Of Engagement and then give it all another go, exciting stuff
[11:45] <Peter`> Yeah Absolutely
[11:47] <Peter`> Doman said something real interesting about gun mav feeling different from sword mav
15[11:48] <Ice|Sleep> oh the pseudo tank vs More Supporty thing?
[11:48] <Peter`> I Dunno!!
15[11:49] <Ice|Sleep> i mean, you mention it just now presumably you remember better than I do if yo just glanced it over!!
[11:49] <Peter`> no he just
[11:49] <Peter`> said only that thing
[11:49] <Peter`> that I just said
[11:49] <Peter`> I have no further info
15[11:49] <Ice|Sleep> o
[11:54] <Peter`> but yeah let’s do another pass on classes?
15[11:54] <Ice|Sleep> yeah (also make sure we keep using the same words for elements haha)
[11:54] <Doman> good different, in a "dark dungeon same class plays different in different rows" kinda way
[11:55] <Peter‘> yeah it kinda touched on something there
[11:55] <Peter`> was it mostly that Short Fuse means something real different based on how easy you are to target?
[11:56] <Doman> yep!
[11:57] <Doman> and init spot too, shredder is like that with "do you go first or last"
[11:57] <Doman> gunner fast maverick just lays on the pain reliably, slow melee quick hit support setup maverick sets up for a big combo when focus firing
15[11:58] <Ice|Sleep> Hm so I think you want "Pin" instead of Stagger, actually, and then "Launch"… so, would the third be "Trip", or would you wanna go with something more abstrast like "Rush" for the third that’s easier to use as a general "yeah move in and hit 'em quick"?
[11:59] <Peter‘> well
[11:59] <Peter`> we should basically think about
[11:59] <Peter`> important combos
[11:59] <Peter`> and see which ones can’t be done with pin / launch
[12:00] <Peter‘> grab a guy + beat on him is Pin. Grappling hook a guy and then make something explode under them, hurling them into the air, and then hammering them onto the opposite side of you like Wile E Coyote is Pin.
[12:00] <Peter`> hitting enemies into your friends is launch, hitting enemies up so they can be smacked down is launch
[12:00] <Peter`> stab a dude and then your sword gets lightning’d is Pin
[12:01] <Peter‘> Rush appeals, since that’s a neater way to do X-Strike than just Pin+Slash
[12:02] <Peter‘> but i also imagine sort of like "a tag that’s associated with single powerful blows". though then again those tend to detonate combos more than activate them
[12:02] <Peter‘> yeah maybe it’s Rush
15[12:02] <Ice|Sleep> Awesome
[12:03] <Peter‘> Pin: Direct/status attacks, Launch: Strong-type attacks, Rush: quick/setuppy attacks
[12:03] <Peter`> god
[12:03] <Peter`> do you get to pick your type when you normal attack
[12:03] <Peter`> or is it weapon-determined
15[12:03] <Ice|Sleep> either could work honestly
15[12:03] <Ice|Sleep> pick makes weapon users hyper versital,
15[12:03] <Ice|Sleep> weapon gives you a tiny bit more insdentive to have multiple weapons
[12:03] <Peter`> weapons mattering is cool, right?
15[12:04] <Ice|Sleep> yeah
[12:04] <Peter`> I think I’d like to test that
[12:04] <Peter‘> mind making a post?
[12:04] <Peter`> I Mean,
15[12:05] <Ice|Sleep> That also lets you go "guns are generally going to Pin, light weapons usualyl Rush, heavy weapons usually Launch"
15[12:05] <Ice|Sleep> and like
[12:05] <Peter`> not that it’ll matter until we redraft classes
15[12:05] <Ice|Sleep> that immediately makes sense
[12:05] <Peter‘> Yeah, That’s What I Was Gonna Do
[12:05] <Peter`> (spears get to pin tho)
15[12:05] <Ice|Sleep> yeah obviously some room for outlines which makes weapon choice intersting

Re: Combos by IcecyleeIcecylee, 02 Oct 2016 19:09

Spoken like a man that never had half or more of his attacks miss!

But okay.

Re: Luck On Defense by IcecyleeIcecylee, 02 Oct 2016 18:41

It's not even so much about the cost, though it definitely does feel weird that they're the only ones with a spend MP sort of thing. idk. we could probably keep it as is it just makes less and less sense to me to more time passes since that seems like it's stepping on the toes of Actual Abilities a lot more than any other classes' passive does, which are by in large complementary.

Free cast wouldn't' really drastically change the playstyle, but it does encourage coming out of the gate strong. I duno. Are there maybe other ideas we could think of to let them play around with…?

Re: Dantali Elves by IcecyleeIcecylee, 02 Oct 2016 18:39

but obviously, grazing is good monster tech as an ability or passive

Re: Luck On Defense by DiaconateDiaconate, 02 Oct 2016 18:37

1. I'm strongly against anything that causes LP to do anything other than affect CoS rolls by 10 per spent LP. They are simple and players like them - let's not make em complicated.
2. Momentum on miss is good, as per teak/hachi
3. LP dodges are supposed to annoy you, frustrating monsters is fun

Re: Luck On Defense by DiaconateDiaconate, 02 Oct 2016 18:37
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